At Harvard’s School of Government, a lunchtime talk: “Brexit’s Impact on the Future of International Security: A Conversation with Sir John Sawers”.
The British former MI6 chief and diplomat (you may remember him as the spy who appeared on Facebook in Speedos) outlined some of the risks Brexit poses to international security. He reassured his international audience that there was no immediate threat of Scotland becoming independent as Scottish nationalism “is on the wane” – the result of the SNP’s “poor record” in administration. “Health standards have fallen, education standards have fallen..” (see below)
Hosting Sawers, Prof Nicholas Burns, former US ambassador to NATO/State Department under-secretary, asked if in ten or fifteen years there could be a UK of England and Wales, adding that even someone of Irish heritage like himself wouldn’t wish to see that.
Sawers said: “The hard and unpleasant truth is that the Brexit campaign was driven by the force of English nationalism.” Although in part prompted by a lack of perceived benefits from globalisation: “The driving force was from the right rather than the left.” But Scottish nationalism was following the Quebec example.
“The centre ground is now vacant”
The ex-MI6 chief said a subject of lively conversation at London dinner parties is: ”If you could remain in the EU and have Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister, would you?” a question he compared to “would you rather be Red or Dead?”
Brexit would force Britain to rely more on alliances with the US and others, noting that Trump is basically an anglophile. Corbyn’s instinct, he thought, would be for a Brexit that was closer to the EU and more independent of the US.
But in the wide-ranging debate that followed his presentation, Sawers said that he feared representative democracy was in danger of being “dumbed down” in an era of populist leaders. The Conservatives had adopted the agenda of a right wing party without changing the personnel whereas the Labour Party had been entered by the hard left.
Britain’s first past the post electoral system dictated that there would be two parties that were ‘broad churches’. France with four parties had been better able to adapt to the emergence of populism. However, Sawers noted that the SNP had managed to displace Labour in Scotland and said it was conceivable that there could be a change in the UK. “The centre ground where politicians used to congregate is now vacant.”
Three conundrums for international security
Data Collection
Security today, Sawers said, depends on data – it is this that allows you to look at the conspirators, the small groups, that alerts you to the ‘person of concern’ before they arrive in your locale.
At the recent Munich security conference, Theresa May indicated that post-Brexit Britain wanted to share data with the EU countries on exactly the same terms – Brexit “in name only” as far as security is concerned.
But Sawers said that the collection of data involves balancing the priorities of security and privacy. There were lively debates about this within the EU. Germany tended to be the strongest voice for privacy and Britain for security. The British view was that privacy is important but security underpins citizens’ ability to exercise their freedoms. Over the long term, Sawers is concerned about what data will be available.
Post-Brexit, Britain will be unable to shape the rules and the agreements. “You don’t have the same say when you are standing outside with your nose pressed up against the window trying to see what is going on in the room as you do when you are in the room sitting at the table. Britain is taking itself out of the room.”
NATO
Sawers said that it made sense for European countries to cooperate more closely on defence capability, design, development and so on. This could reduce overlap and increase efficiency. But the British were always keen to protect NATO’s central role
This balance could be threatened by Brexit. Currently, there is, he said, a European force in Bosnia, commanded by a Brit and run through NATO with the involvement of Turkey; and a European force successfully patrolling the coast of Somalia to combat piracy, operated from Northwood near London. Both of these operations could be affected by Brexit.
Sawers was concerned about the possibility of EU cooperation on defence displacing the primacy of NATO – “the main foot on the brake has been Britain’s”.
Foreign policy
Within the EU, the UK was the country with the most global viewpoint, Sawers said. The UK was a voice for an open EU and it had opposed calls for greater protectionism from some quarters.
Leaving the EU will incline Britain more towards its relationship with the US, but the irony was that the more powerful the UK is in Brussels the more influence it has in Washington and the more influence in Washington, the stronger it is in Brussels. Leaving the EU would leave Britain’s influence diminished.
But Sawers also said that in the EU, it was easier to manage relationships with relative equals in terms of size, military capability, wealth, than it would be to be “in bed with an elephant”, where you can offer ideas and advice but you know the decision-making is going to be done elsewhere.
P.S.
When Sawers had finished his talk, I said that Scotland is arguably better governed now than it has been in a century , with major infrastructure projects, free university education and a health system meeting targets better than that of England. Sawers conceded that perhaps the prevailing wisdom in London was wrong. He may be right, however, about there being no immediate threat of Scottish independence – although not for the reasons he gave. Many Scots are already very worried about Brexit and the prospect of further upheaval may not appeal.
Andrew Anderson says
Re the P.S.: I’m not sure what “major infrastructure projects” Jackie Kemp is thinking of – perhaps the Queensferry Crossing, twice delayed and even now not complete? The mere fact that such projects exist is surely neither good nor bad. As for “free university education”, I hope that Kemp is familiar with the work of Lucy Hunter Blackburn, who has shown that so-called “free” education (in reality it’s of course not free; it’s just question of who pays for it) has malign effects on access to higher education, unless of course you’re from a well-off family. As for being closer to health targets than England, so what? What matters is outcomes. We know that spending per head is much higher in Scotland (by 13%, if I remember correctly the last figure I saw), but with inferior results.
I wonder what Kemp thinks of the SNP’s cuts to local government spending, its poor educational outcomes, its failure to do anything significant to improve economic performance or its obsession with the Stasi-like Named Persons scheme? Not to mention its micro-management and interference with supposedly independent bodies such as Audit Scotland and the Scottish Police Authority.
If this is outstandingly good government……..
jackie kemp says
Of course there are issues. Some of the legislation you mention is pretty flawed. I didn’t say it was perfect – I said it was better than the past. I happen to think devolution has been good for Scotland – remembering the shambles of the 80s and 90s for a start. I am basically a fan of the Curriculum for Excellence, (which was introduced by Labour) I think when it is delivered well it can create wonderful opportunities for student-led and individual learning. Of course it will take a while to bed in. PISA isn’t the be all and end all – if it is then we should teach to the test! Transformative change is always difficult to implement.
Local government needs to be rationalised and how it relates to Holyrood rethought. Of course the free degree education is paid for from taxation. But I think it is great.
Jackie Kemp says
Oh and infrastructure projects – dualing the A9 – how long have we waited for that? The Borders Railway, the upgrades to Dundee Station and Queen St station. The journey time between Edinburgh and Glasgow is going to be cut significantly. Upgrades to M8, M74, new bridge over the Forth…
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she would offer a referendum on whether the electorate actually wanted another indyref. Sturgeon”s theme throughout the GE campaign was that it was an opportunity for voters to signal that they agreed with her spurious claims to have a mandate for indyref2. She also said that if the SNP had a triumph on June 8, then Theresa May’s refusal to agree to a second independence referendum would be unsustainable. When the votes were counted, the SNP had lost 21 seats and seen its vote share fall to 37%, and less than 50% in every constituency. Days later she stood up in Holyrood and admitted that she understood that the people of Scotland didn”t want IndyRef2. So, in effect, we have already had our referendum on whether or not we want to repeat our referendum. The answer was an unambiguous “No. best custom essay